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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2007, 00:26 
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A game has a limited development budget.

So let's take shortcuts that negatively impact many of our users and throw good practice to the wind.



No, the so-called zoom is an illusion...

I'd recommend thinking this through again. You see less with more detail... i.e. ZOOMED IN! We want to see more at the same detail level when the aspect changes (taller OR wider)... i.e. NOT ZOOMED!



So what? The same Bioshock approach that works for 4:3 and 16:9 will work fine for 5:4.

That's because it is Vert+ for aspects taller than 4:3... the right way for going taller. If the game was developed for 16:9, then all aspects taller would be vert+ and all aspects wider would be Horz+. This isn't the case, ergo they didn't properly develop for 16:9.


However, some games depend upon FOV for dramatic effect, so it makes sense for games to have a default FOV chosen by the developer.

Then they can use an in-game cut-scene and take control of the aspect and FOV temporarily if needed.



Why is it that a good game is one that makes lots of money rather than one that is coded well and is fun to play? You sound more like an investor than a gamer to me.


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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2007, 03:15 
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His name is trrll ffs. What's wrong with you people? :lol:


His name may be humorous, yes, but there is nothing wrong with us people, or him. Far from it, I think we are all super dooper. :wink:

What I like about WSGF is that it is a family friendly community which is reflected in its well mannered behavior, tolerance and conscientious attitude. WSGF is not an extreme community and thus is should be open to and respect other beliefs and opinions. In saying that I hope that we as a community can continue to show trrll courtesy, the same courtesy that I have seen hurled out the door if this had been discussed on countless other forums.

It is the above values and attitudes which sets WSGF apart from those other forums and is what defines WSGF in my eyes and will always precede it and will encourage respect of what it believes and represents.

I hope I haven't missed the humour.

In saying that:

::TrueWS

===============================================

Now back onto the main topic.

First I want to comment on the vein that 2K made these decisions based on financial decisions. You may believe that, however I hold other beliefs as do a lot of other avid gamers who have felt they have been affected on this matter, and these feelings are valid and deserve to be voiced. That belief is still that the widescreen support was implemented poorly.


A game has a limited development budget.


But times have changed. 16:9/10 are becoming dominant.



Yes, "HOR+" used to be a common strategy for supporting wider aspect reatios. But that was largely a consequence of games being developed primarily for 4:3 and only secondarily being adapted to wider aspect ratios.


Poor widescreen implementation decisions are not restricted to 2K and certainly not restricted to recent trends in widescreen sales. There have been VERT+ implementations years in the past way before the recent major shift in widescreen sales and the decline of 4:3. It is no surprise that developers back then also had a limited development budget however they still made VERT+ decisions even when widescreen times hadn't changed. So there is no trend to support the argument that this is perhaps identifiable with widescreen change and thus attempting to link it to the gaming industry, that I flatly deny. Developers made poor decision then, and then make poor decisions now. VERT+ was a poor choice back then, and it is a poor choice now.


If a developer finds a "shortcut" that saves time and money, with little if any sacrifice in the game experience for the great majority of the customer base, then that frees up resources to invest in aspects of the game that yield a greater dividend in terms of improving the game play experience and (the bottom line) sales.


That adds weight to my argument of poor implementation. HOR+ has empirically and still is a sound economic design choice in relation to many games as has been seen with the majority of developers. These developers still identify it as the better “shortcutâ€

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2007, 06:31 
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[quote]A game has a limited development budget.

So let's take shortcuts that negatively impact many of our users and throw good practice to the wind.

In which case your game won't sell, and you'll lose your jobs. The successful game developers are the ones who know what shortcuts they can take without impacting too many users, so that they can use the savings to improve the game in ways that will be appreciated by many users.


No, the so-called zoom is an illusion...

I'd recommend thinking this through again. You see less with more detail... i.e. ZOOMED IN! We want to see more at the same detail level when the aspect changes (taller OR wider)... i.e. NOT ZOOMED!


Once again, zooming is a process, not a state. What we call zooming in is either magnifying a 2D image or reducing the field of view of a 3D image while we watch. And of course, it is impossible to see "more at the same detail level" if an image is already rendered to the full resolution of your monitor. If you increase the FOV, then you lose detail, because there are a fixed number of pixels on your screen.

That's because it is Vert+ for aspects taller than 5:4... the right way for going taller. If the game was developed for 16:9, then all aspects taller would be vert+ and all aspects wider would be Horz+. This isn't the case, ergo they didn't properly develop for 16:9.


That would be more work for little benefit. The game was developed for 16:9, and FOV was optimized for that aspect ratio. It does not support aspects wider than that, since they constitute a negligible part of the market. So they only had to worry about how to deal with narrower aspect ratios. Since the game is designed to work with a particular FOV, that is fixed. To avoid unsightly letterboxing, the vertical dimension is allowed to expand to fill the monitor. This accommodates all aspect ratios narrower than 16:9, without the risk of harming gameplay by cropping off important stuff on the sides

However, some games depend upon FOV for dramatic effect, so it makes sense for games to have a default FOV chosen by the developer.


Then they can use an in-game cut-scene and take control of the aspect and FOV temporarily if needed.


Bioshock's FOV was chosen because the developers found in playtesting that this FOV produced the best game experience. Many reviewers have commented on the game's immersive character and its claustrophobic sense of suspense, which arise in part from its actual size, perspective-correct FOV--not just in cut scenes, but throughout.

Why is it that a good game is one that makes lots of money rather than one that is coded well and is fun to play? You sound more like an investor than a gamer to me.


The two cannot be separated. A game like Bioshock requires a huge investment of labor from a highly skilled team of artists, writers, game designers and programmers. Those guys have to feed their families, so this kind of game costs millions of dollars to make. That means that games like Bioshock would not exist if they did not make money for their investors. And the way they make money is by being fun to play in a way that is appreciated by a large number of people.


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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2007, 06:39 
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No double posting now trrll. :D

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2007, 10:12 
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In which case your game won't sell, and you'll lose your jobs.


I guess I shouldn't have engaged you in your fallacy since you are quite willing to predict the future and presuppose facts to suit your opinion. You supposition that the budget can't support developers doing things right. I supposition that it can. You yourself have claimed BioShock to be a resounding success financially, so they could have spent twice the budget and still have come out ahead. That sounds like my supposition would be the correct one according to your own testimony.



Once again, zooming is a process, not a state. What we call zooming in is either magnifying a 2D image or reducing the field of view of a 3D image while we watch. And of course, it is impossible to see "more at the same detail level" if an image is already rendered to the full resolution of your monitor. If you increase the FOV, then you lose detail, because there are a fixed number of pixels on your screen.


Take a 4:3 display 1600x1200 pixels high and show a game screenshot on it. Add 160 pixels to each side to give you 1920x1200. What do you do with the extra pixels?
Add information to the sides of the screenshot?
Or crop off the top and bottom of the screenshot and then expand the frame until it fills in the new area?

With a 3D game doing real-time rendering, one of them keeps the detail level the same and adds information to the sides while keeping the same zoom level relative to the original frame, the other zooms in and increases detail relative to the original frame. Understand now?



That would be more work for little benefit.


Versus undoing their work and remaking it to satisfy a not so small market segment? Now that does sound like more work for little benefit.



However, some games depend upon FOV for dramatic effect, so it makes sense for games to have a default FOV chosen by the developer.

Bioshock's FOV was chosen because the developers found in playtesting that this FOV produced the best game experience. Many reviewers have commented on the game's immersive character and its claustrophobic sense of suspense, which arise in part from its actual size, perspective-correct FOV--not just in cut scenes, but throughout.


Refer to the previous posts regarding the FOV on this forum and 2K's boards, I don't feel like reiterating yet again.



Why is it that a good game is one that makes lots of money rather than one that is coded well and is fun to play? You sound more like an investor than a gamer to me.

[quote]The two cannot be separated. A game like Bioshock requires a huge investment of labor from a highly skilled team of artists, writers, game designers and programmers. Those guys have to feed their families, so this kind of game costs millions of dollars to make. That means that games like Bioshock would not exist if they did not make money for their investors. And the way they make money is by being fun to play in a way that is appreciated by a large number of people.


Sure they can be separate. A great game can be a letdown financially. Refer to Psychonauts for example.
Some poor games hit it big, some great games don't. Investments are risky, and there are always going to be people willing to take a bit of risk so games are in very little danger of losing their investors. Not all games even need investors, some start small and work their way up. See Crimsonland for example. Psychonauts was thought to be a sure thing but it failed financially, while Crimsonland did far better than anyone had expected and with only a one man development team. Both are visually beautiful games, and loads of fun to play. One succeeded financially and one did not.


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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2007, 11:50 
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[quote]In which case your game won't sell, and you'll lose your jobs.


I guess I shouldn't have engaged you in your fallacy since you are quite willing to predict the future and presuppose facts to suit your opinion. You supposition that the budget can't support developers doing things right. I supposition that it can. You yourself have claimed BioShock to be a resounding success financially, so they could have spent twice the budget and still have come out ahead. That sounds like my supposition would be the correct one according to your own testimony.

Destucto Bots view supports mine point on the fact that other developers have implemented HOR+ with much success. It is evident to me that 2K made a poor decision not to implement HOR+ totally aside from financial considerations. Read my previous post to find out why.


[quote]Once again, zooming is a process, not a state. What we call zooming in is either magnifying a 2D image or reducing the field of view of a 3D image while we watch. And of course, it is impossible to see "more at the same detail level" if an image is already rendered to the full resolution of your monitor. If you increase the FOV, then you lose detail, because there are a fixed number of pixels on your screen.


Take a 4:3 display 1600x1200 pixels high and show a game screenshot on it. Add 160 pixels to each side to give you 1920x1200. What do you do with the extra pixels?
Add information to the sides of the screenshot?
Or crop off the top and bottom of the screenshot and then expand the frame until it fills in the new area?

With a 3D game doing real-time rendering, one of them keeps the detail level the same and adds information to the sides while keeping the same zoom level relative to the original frame, the other zooms in and increases detail relative to the original frame. Understand now?


Yep, this is true for sure. The way Bioshock is zoomed in does indeed affect the resolution and zoomed in state and thus the detail. I say this as I get a performance hit when I use the HOR+ hack to implement correct widescreen. That means there is more detail on the screen that is being rendered.



[quote]However, some games depend upon FOV for dramatic effect, so it makes sense for games to have a default FOV chosen by the developer.

Bioshock's FOV was chosen because the developers found in playtesting that this FOV produced the best game experience. Many reviewers have commented on the game's immersive character and its claustrophobic sense of suspense, which arise in part from its actual size, perspective-correct FOV--not just in cut scenes, but throughout.


Refer to the previous posts regarding the FOV on this forum and 2K's boards, I don't feel like reiterating yet again.


Again, that argument is a farce. See my previous post on why multiple game developers using EPICs engine all decide that their play testing all needed the same “immersive character and its claustrophobic sense of suspenseâ€

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2007, 05:48 
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I guess I shouldn't have engaged you in your fallacy since you are quite willing to predict the future and presuppose facts to suit your opinion. You supposition that the budget can't support developers doing things right. I supposition that it can. You yourself have claimed BioShock to be a resounding success financially, so they could have spent twice the budget and still have come out ahead. That sounds like my supposition would be the correct one according to your own testimony.


It is because that nobody can predict the future that a development budget cannot assume that a game will be a resounding success. Budgeting is inherently a zero-sum game. Money spent on one thing means less to spend somewhere else. There will always be compromises, things that could have been done better given unlimited money and time. Spend money optimizing a different FOV for 4:3? Or use the same money to add another plasmid or a few more rooms to a level?


Take a 4:3 display 1600x1200 pixels high and show a game screenshot on it. Add 160 pixels to each side to give you 1920x1200. What do you do with the extra pixels?
Add information to the sides of the screenshot?
Or crop off the top and bottom of the screenshot and then expand the frame until it fills in the new area?


The 4:3 display is lower resolution than the 16:9 display, because the same FOV is spread across fewer pixels. So if you simply expand the FOV, you end up with a 16:9 image than is lower quality the game currently has. As I said, different games will use the additional resolution of a 16:9 display differently--a game where the emphasis is on shooting may choose to favor FOV at the expense of image quality. A game that really wants to achieve an immersive experience may choose to favor higher resolution at the expense of FOV.


With a 3D game doing real-time rendering, one of them keeps the detail level the same and adds information to the sides while keeping the same zoom level relative to the original frame, the other zooms in and increases detail relative to the original frame. Understand now?


The "original" frame for Bioshock is the 16:9 frame. So the options for 4:3 were to reduce the FOV and retain resolution or to retain the FOV and sacrifice resolution. The latter is also the least costly in terms of playtesting. Considering the absence of complaints from 4:3 players, it seems like it was a reasonable decision.

Refer to the previous posts regarding the FOV on this forum and 2K's boards, I don't feel like reiterating yet again.


As nobody on either board has refuted my point that the FOV chosen for Bioshock provides a perspective-correct, actual size window into the game (it can't really be refuted; it is a geometric fact, and can be verified in just about any reference on 3D graphics), I think that we can regard this as established. I accept that it may not be to everybody's personal taste, but it is a reasonable design decision, and given the game's stellar reviews and sales, it seems that this approach is working for a large number of people.

The two cannot be separated. A game like Bioshock requires a huge investment of labor from a highly skilled team of artists, writers, game designers and programmers. Those guys have to feed their families, so this kind of game costs millions of dollars to make. That means that games like Bioshock would not exist if they did not make money for their investors. And the way they make money is by being fun to play in a way that is appreciated by a large number of people.


Sure they can be separate. A great game can be a letdown financially. Refer to Psychonauts for example. Some poor games hit it big, some great games don't.



A game that is great artistically can certainly flop in the marketplace, because it appeals to too small a market segment. As I said, it must be fun to play in a way that is appreciated by a large number of people. On the other hand, if it is not fun to play, it will never be a success. I don't think any poor games hit it big. If a game that you don't like hits it big, it is probably just that for some reason you are unable to perceive the qualities that make it enjoyable to others.

Some poor games hit it big, some great games don't. Investments are risky, and there are always going to be people willing to take a bit of risk so games are in very little danger of losing their investors.


I certainly know of examples of games that never were made because their developers could not line up investors. Finding over a million dollars to invest in something as risky as a game is not easy. Games are not a small risk; it is a hit-driven industry and many games are not profitable.

Not all games even need investors, some start small and work their way up. See Crimsonland for example.


There are certainly game designs that do not require a huge investment. It is still possible for one guy to produce a 2D arcade game like Crimsonland or Geometry Wars. But 3D FPS games do not fall into this category. These are inherently big budget projects, requiring big teams. And to attract those investors, the members of the development team have to be skilled and experienced, which means that they have to be reasonably well paid.

_________
Now back onto the main topic.

First I want to comment on the vein that 2K made these decisions based on financial decisions.


I think that it is clear that the decision on 16:9 FOV was made for reasons of providing the best possible game experience, based on playtesting of different FOVs. 2K has stated this, and there is no rational reason to disbelieve them. It beggars the imagination to think that an experienced developer would fail to playtest something as basic as FOV in a crucial product that represents a major investment for the firm.

Since the game was developed with 16:9 as the target aspect ratio, the question for the firm was clearly how to handle narrower aspect ratios: crop of the sides (horiz-) or expand the top (vert+). So there never was a point at which "horiz+" was even considered, because the 16:9 version was developed first.

In this case, they made the decision to expand the vertical. It was clearly the most economical approach. It is clear from public statements made by 2K that they did not deliberate over the 4:3 display to the same extent as the 16:9 display, but considering the lack of any complaints from 4:3 owners, it was probably also the best choice for gameplay. It is likely that other developers of games produced initially for 16:9 have made (and will continue to make) the same decision for the same reasons. So one cannot point at other games that have made similar design choices as evidence that it is somehow the "default" of the EPIC engine, even if one were willing to make the absurd assumption that experienced 3D developers would not think to adjust the FOV to fit their own game.

You may believe that, however I hold other beliefs as do a lot of other avid gamers who have felt they have been affected on this matter, and these feelings are valid and deserve to be voiced. That belief is still that the widescreen support was implemented poorly.


Yes, I'm aware that a lot of people would like to believe otherwise, despite any real evidence. There are always people looking to cast blame.

Poor widescreen implementation decisions are not restricted to 2K and certainly not restricted to recent trends in widescreen sales. There have been VERT+ implementations years in the past way before the recent major shift in widescreen sales and the decline of 4:3. It is no surprise that developers back then also had a limited development budget however they still made VERT+ decisions even when widescreen times hadn't changed.



I have not tried to argue that there is no valid reason for vert+; I think that it was probably the best choice for Bioshock, even if it was also the most cost-effective. I have, however, pointed out that as development moves to 16:9, economic reasons join esthetic ones in favoring this approach for some games. So it hardly makes sense to point to other recent games using this approach as "evidence" that developers, abandoning years of experience working with FOVs, simply decided to accept the default of a 3D graphics engine.

That adds weight to my argument of poor implementation. HOR+ has empirically and still is a sound economic design choice in relation to many games as has been seen with the majority of developers. These developers still identify it as the better “shortcutâ€


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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2007, 06:09 
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The 4:3 display is lower resolution than the 16:9 display, because the same FOV is spread across fewer pixels. So if you simply expand the FOV, you end up with a 16:9 image than is lower quality the game currently has. As I said, different games will use the additional resolution of a 16:9 display differently--a game where the emphasis is on shooting may choose to favor FOV at the expense of image quality. A game that really wants to achieve an immersive experience may choose to favor higher resolution at the expense of FOV.

Except that other games using the same engine are using a wider FOV: Gears of War and Rainbow 6 Vegas. Gears of War seems to handle full detail quite well on the XBox 360.



THAT is just flat out wrong

see here
http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/node/8104

Gears of war is also vert- id like to see what would happen if its hor+
as stated there is a bit of a drop in frame rate for the PC bioshock with the hack on meaning its having to work harder to render the same res


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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2007, 09:07 
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You can't be serious. I could hardly be bothered to read through all of that trrll, let alone comment on it all. Your method of breaking everything down into iddy bitty peices maybe scientific to you, but - slap me stupid and call me nancy - it is boring as batshit.

How about you put that all into a bunch of cohesive arguments rather than breaking sentance down under a microscope. It seems to me like you are picking holes in arguments to remain in some sort of remance of...something. I am not interested (and I doubt anyone else is, other than yourself) in drilling down into that much detail.

Now for the sake of the dailogue, my main points still stand, your more or less repeating the same bunch of arguments that I disagree with for the reasons I previously discussed.

Is there any new ground that we need to cover? Or should we just post links back to our previous arguments?

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PostPosted: 18 Sep 2007, 16:46 
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The 4:3 display is lower resolution than the 16:9 display, because the same FOV is spread across fewer pixels. So if you simply expand the FOV, you end up with a 16:9 image than is lower quality the game currently has. As I said, different games will use the additional resolution of a 16:9 display differently--a game where the emphasis is on shooting may choose to favor FOV at the expense of image quality. A game that really wants to achieve an immersive experience may choose to favor higher resolution at the expense of FOV.

Except that other games using the same engine are using a wider FOV: Gears of War and Rainbow 6 Vegas. Gears of War seems to handle full detail quite well on the XBox 360.



THAT is just flat out wrong

see here
http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/node/8104



This is a topic on DiRT. How is that relevant?

Gears of war is also vert- id like to see what would happen if its hor+
as stated there is a bit of a drop in frame rate for the PC bioshock with the hack on meaning its having to work harder to render the same res


What, do you imagine that somehow your XBox 360 "knows" that somebody else with a 4:3 display is seeing the same FOV, and slows down out of sheer embarrassment? The only thing that could reasonably affect performance is how much FOV the game provides. The point is that GoW uses a wider FOV than Bioshock and does not seem to have performance problems, so it does not make sense that Bioshock chose a 75 degree FOV due to performance problems with higher FOVs. And I believe that GoW was also developed initially for widescreen, so that makes 4:3 vert+.


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