Widescreen Gaming Forum

Well, that wasn't really my argument. I was arguing that although I find DRM to be a flaw, I still bought AC2 because I think that we've caused companies to reach this level. I think that our community has driven Ubisoft to this so I can't blame them for it. Since I have a really stable internet connection, I've actually yet to have a single instance of DRM-trouble while playing, so it's worked out quite well thusfar.

This is pretty much my stand, supporting the games on PC is the most important thing for me.

Plus to be honest, I find worrying about DRM on an open platform to be somewhat paranoid. Unless AC2 somehow stays completely fortified for 20 years there will be a way to play it someday, I'm not too worried about it.

Well, that wasn't really my argument. I was arguing that although I find DRM to be a flaw, I still bought AC2 because I think that we've caused companies to reach this level. I think that our community has driven Ubisoft to this so I can't blame them for it. Since I have a really stable internet connection, I've actually yet to have a single instance of DRM-trouble while playing, so it's worked out quite well thusfar.

Honestly, the fact that they've been "driven" to it doesn't really justify it for me. Piracy is affecting PC gaming, yes, but if you understand that pirates are going to find a way around DRM anyways then all the companies are doing is punishing their paying customers. Companies have to do something to fight back against piracy, yes. What that is - I have absolutely no idea. So far that answer has been DRM, and it's been proven to be a failed experiment.

How would that make it worse? *Pirating* games with DRM, a strategy which you actually suggested, would make the issue worse, for what should be obvious reasons. But if games with DRM sell, and therefore it worked, why would they invest in even more DRM?

First off, I didn't suggest pirating games. I said it was an option. There's a difference.

Secondly, the reason it would make it worse is that even if games with DRM sell, there ARE going to be those that pirate it. COD MW2 sold a lot of copies, but it's impossible to deny that a lot of copies of that game were pirated. Therefore the company still says that they need stricter DRM to fight the pirates. Buying the games just tells them that as a consumer you're fine with their policy of treating you like a criminal, and you'll give them capital to develop even more draconian forms of DRM.

First off, I didn't suggest pirating games. I said it was an option. There's a difference.

You "suggested" three alternatives to paying. One of them was piracy.

Secondly, the reason it would make it worse is that even if games with DRM sell, there ARE going to be those that pirate it. COD MW2 sold a lot of copies, but it's impossible to deny that a lot of copies of that game were pirated. Therefore the company still says that they need stricter DRM to fight the pirates.

If you pirate, you make all of this more true. If you buy, you make all of this less true. If you're trying to support a claim that buying hurts the situation and pirating doesn't, you aren't doing a good job so far.

Buying the games just tells them that as a consumer you're fine with their policy of treating you like a criminal, and you'll give them capital to develop even more draconian forms of DRM.

Pirating the games just tells them that you *ARE* a criminal. And they'll get capital to develop even more draconian forms of DRM from the console gamers (if they even bother with a PC port next time).

If you pirate, you make all of this more true. If you buy, you make all of this less true. If you're trying to support a claim that buying hurts the situation and pirating doesn't, you aren't doing a good job so far.

How the hell does paying them money tell them to STOP implementing DRM? If they think the DRM is making you buy the game, they're going to keep doing so. In addition, if you would get past your crusade for a second you would see that I'm not AT ALL advocating that people pirate games as opposed to buying them. Pirating games only contributes to the problem. There is no real "solution" to the problem. If you want the game, someone somewhere is going to have to either pirate it or buy it in order to play it. The only vote consumers have is with their dollar, and the only way to make an impact is to use it. If you boycott games from studios that use such aggressive DRM (Ubisoft for example) then you may force them to give it up, or more likely that will skew the piracy numbers entirely in the other direction and they'll abandon the platform all together. There's no solution and it's all shades of gray. But saying that we should all just go about buying our games and being good little consumers with little thought as to the impact our contributions make is a very narrow-minded viewpoint.

Pirating the games just tells them that you *ARE* a criminal. And they'll get capital to develop even more draconian forms of DRM from the console gamers (if they even bother with a PC port next time).

Which is why I'm NOT saying you should pirate the games. Sad as it is, consoles are probably going to take over PC gaming eventually, mostly because of issues like DRM. That being said, there's always going to be a market for PC games as long as the development cost for consoles is so much higher.

I've said my piece, so dear thread, I bid you adieu. Until next time!

[quote]Honestly, the fact that they've been "driven" to it doesn't really justify it for me. Piracy is affecting PC gaming, yes, but if you understand that pirates are going to find a way around DRM anyways then all the companies are doing is punishing their paying customers. Companies have to do something to fight back against piracy, yes. What that is - I have absolutely no idea. So far that answer has been DRM, and it's been proven to be a failed experiment.

Assassin's Creed 2's DRM is still working quite a while after release, let's not forget. Mass Effect and some other games had DRM that worked for a while. You don't need to have the game protected forever, just long enough to get sales from spoiled brat pirates who can't wait. When I said I supported AC2's DRM as long as it worked people acted like that would NEVER happen, yet here we are, it has, and no one seems to be changing their tune.

As for the rest of what you two are talking about, my stance is simple: less PC game sales means less PC games, not less DRM, period. These companies will never just give in and release great PC games DRM free in the future, it's not going to happen. Boycotting DRM on principle just means less PC sales, not DRM-free gaming, it's a protest with no possible good outcome. On an open platform there will always be a way to play these games someday anyway, acting like there won't be, acting like your personal morals are at stake, is a bit exaggerated if you ask me, and the only thing it gets you is less PC games, less PC sales for publishers and a lot of stress.

one needs to put this in perspective
only 4% of kotaku readers are pure PC players , that's rather small, don't you think ?

also this poll is a bit borked from the start, not enough options to reply, if you don't fall in-line with available options one may feel "forced" to choose one of the few available...

for example
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/03/haveyoupiratedconsole.jpg
=> lacks "no but I don't have a console"...
as stupid as it may look, this is necessary so that people who want to reply have the "possibility to reply truthfully" open to them

one needs to put this in perspective
only 4% of kotaku readers are pure PC players , that's rather small, don't you think ?

also this poll is a bit borked from the start, not enough options to reply, if you don't fall in-line with available options one may feel "forced" to choose one of the few available...

for example
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/03/haveyoupiratedconsole.jpg
=> lacks "no but I don't have a console"...
as stupid as it may look, this is necessary so that people who want to reply have the "possibility to reply truthfully" open to them

Very true.

Sites like Kotaku, and really the majority of gaming media, are run by people who play on consoles and have almost always played on consoles. Listening to podcasts, watching gaming walkthroughs and other such things make this abundantly clear. I don't think most of these gaming media types would ever even think to have a "I don't own any consoles" option in their poll.

How the hell does paying them money tell them to STOP implementing DRM?

All I did was refute your claim that it would make the situation worse. Not once did I claim this would tell them to stop implementing DRM altogether.

In addition, if you would get past your crusade for a second you would see that I'm not AT ALL advocating that people pirate games as opposed to buying them.

I see no other way to interpret these words:

If you're so desperate to play it, find a friend who has it, just pirate it (not that I'm endorsing such an action), or go without playing that game. If you keep buying games with horrible DRM attached to them the issue is only going to get worse.

You are clearly saying that buying these games is the worst thing you can do. That given, what purpose does saying "just pirate it" serve, other than to advocate it as opposed to the worse alternative?

There is no real "solution" to the problem. If you want the game, someone somewhere is going to have to either pirate it or buy it in order to play it.

I think there is a real solution. Figure out your priorities - what's more important to you? Being able to play the game, or sending the message that DRM is unwelcome and uncalled for? If you can't have both, you might as well take the approach that best serves the one you prefer.

But saying that we should all just go about buying our games and being good little consumers with little thought as to the impact our contributions make is a very narrow-minded viewpoint.

I think I'm giving just enough thought as to the impact of the decision as is necessary. Acting as though piracy was an effective way to protest, however, is nothing but BS rationalization.

Bored.

Locked.