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Piracy and cracked releases
http://www.wsgf.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=26616		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Svardskampe [ 12 Sep 2013, 02:01 ]
Post subject:  Piracy and cracked releases
I'd like to have a healthy discussion* on this, as I started this in another topic, it would be more suited in its own topic.

Svardskampe wrote:
helifax wrote:
cr@cked versions (which is something that me and WSGF is against)


Of course that is your opinion, and you have every right to have that opinion, and I respect that. However I want to say that I do not agree. Not paying is a form of protest as well, against devs not doing their jobs well enough (namely, supporting Eyefinity, so a fix is not necessary).

As what is the advantage of using Steam over piratery? That is updates. Pirated releases never - or rarely - get updated. This could be used in their advantage as well, so to say that multimonitor support is added in a patch, then how quick do you think a multi monitor user is going to get the official version?
In conclusio: In my opinion piracy is an incentive to keep supporting your game after release and apply patches, to even new content. Examples: Don't Starve, Minecraft, several android apps with lots of useful updates with new content.




*discussion: In a healthy discussion all opinions are respected, both for and against. A well funded opinion is backed by factual arguments. Arguments can be debunked in a respectful manner with counter arguments. If unsure, or pointed towards it, please read up on this wikipedia article on fallacies. This can also happen by accident as the poster is not aware. Don't start flaming at this person, but try to make clear on why his argument is a fallacy and do this in a relatively polite manner.
Also I must note that the general stance of WSGF as an entity is against piracy. As with all opinions, this must be respected, however one can respect that and not agree to it at the same time.
Author:  LuckyNoS7evin [ 12 Sep 2013, 12:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
There is no discussion to have, piracy is illegal!

IMO stealing from companies who make games and publish them is not a good idea. 1) they price the game to try and re-coupe the cost of pirates 2) games end up with more DRM 3) games no longer get released on a platforms due to the amount of piracy (Madden NFL is an example)

Now when you look at games that don't come with a demo I don't believe in this, most if not all games should be demoable

I'm liking the look of Steams Family Share thing they announced officially yesterday
Author:  simroz [ 12 Sep 2013, 13:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
LuckyNoS7evin wrote:
There is no discussion to have, piracy is illegal!


Lol, you pirated your user name :lol:

But i do agree that programmers & developers should be paid for their time and expertise. Unfortunately we live in a world where a dollar value can be put on everything, and profit must be made. Imagine telling your grandparents that we would be paying for water, maybe in another 50 years we will be paying for clean air....
Author:  skipclarke [ 12 Sep 2013, 15:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
Just to be clear, the WSGF does not condone nor does it support piracy. We do not allow links to pirated copies or Torrents on the site.
Author:  Wijkert [ 12 Sep 2013, 15:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
LuckyNoS7evin wrote:
There is no discussion to have, piracy is illegal!


This!
Author:  Haldi [ 12 Sep 2013, 19:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
skipclarke wrote:
Just to be clear, the WSGF does not condone nor does it support piracy. We do not allow links to pirated copies or Torrents on the site.


This!



IMHO DRM are just a PITA and nowaydas trough these awesome launchers (ubisoft, EA(origin), Steam ...) more used to get statistic of their users than DRM.
I normally just don't buy these games. Normally.... except i really want that game and want to support the developer, in case of Risen 2 (or Grid 2). The next game that i'm gonna buy for 100% sure is The Witcher 3! They will release it on GoG without any DRM! i had so much fun with The Witcher and Witcher 2, even if won't like the Witcher 3, releasing an AAA title without DRM is worth my praise(money)
Author:  Paradigm Shifter [ 12 Sep 2013, 19:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
Yeah, I don't support piracy. That's why I have a copy of Max Payne 3 that I can't play because it wanted me to set up an account... which I did... then it told me I didn't have an account...

...uh, yeah, good going.

I'm just glad I got it in a Steam sale, so at least I didn't waste a lot of money on it.
Author:  simroz [ 13 Sep 2013, 00:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
I know i went off topic before, but i wonder if programmers and developers do get their fair share of profits, or is it like this:



PS: Codemonkeys rule, wish they made more than 2 seasons....
EDIT: youtube link didn't work, here is the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JthkWPYk4-Q
Author:  Toothless Spoon [ 13 Sep 2013, 03:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
I'm 32 years of age and when I was younger I'll admit I pirated games. But times have changed, and I've changed. There is no argument that someone can use to justify piracy and every pirate knows this. If you do it for a 'cause' there are far better and more legal ways to have your voice be heard. Today, we have social media which is such a powerful tool in this industry, and if you feel companies are taking advantage of you by charging too much, or not supporting the product after release - then you vote with your wallet (not pirate a product), you rally like minded people and let your voice be heard. Although in the past that approach hasn't been overly effective - today is different. The indie scene has helped that a lot, and as mentioned so has social media.

These kids that make the games for the hobby that I love, deserve the dollars coming to them. I can honestly say not only do I support ever dev I can, I am proud to do so. Is the industry perfect? No. But look how far we've come in relatively such a short amount time, and we have such a bright future - well a much more brighter future if every person pays to get on board. I really think its sad seeing any game get pirated now, especially ones that do something different and suffer commercially because of pirating - but it's terrible to pirate indie games when usually they cost nothing.

It's a good thing for gamers to constructively keep devs/publishers on their toes - and we can - I've seen the benefits of taking to the forums and telling the makers that they are doing something wrong. Does it work all the time? No. But if we all persevere we see the results.

Like the others have posted before me, there really is NO argument someone can make that justifies piracy. I'm glad the guys on this site that work hard to fix our games, don't support cracked releases - that's how it should be.

If you have financial issues then unfortunately the legal thing to do is not buy/pirate/steal the game. I'm sure if you were making a little indie game, you would want every dollar you can from sales, because you know the blood, sweat and tears that goes into development. It's about responsibility and respect, if you don't respect something (like most kids today - but not exclusive to kids) you won't care, and you wont support it - but the day you grow up and own something for yourself, and some arsehole damages/steals/whatever you possession, you'll care, you'll care a whole bunch and then you'll realise that you were wrong all those years.

I did it as a kid, because kids steal shit - I think that's a growing phase and you grow out of it because like I said you don't know the ramifications, but MOST grow out of it.
Author:  Svardskampe [ 14 Sep 2013, 00:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Piracy and cracked releases
I'd like to raise the notion that (intrusive) DRM is not caused by piracy, it is caused by the short sightedness of the implementer (may it be the publisher or the dev).
DRM is not witholding a SINGLE pirated copy, and it annoys legitimite buyers. The method of combatting piracy is to offer a better alternative through the legal means than the alternative channel. How is that achieved?
- Play it to the strengths of the platform: Pirated copies hardly see any patches and updates. Keep supporting your game with bugfixes to new content to make the legal alternative more attractive by offering essentially a better gameplay experience, at least for the foreseeable future after an update rolled out. Games that did this and deterred pirates away: Don't Starve (content), Minecraft (content, patches), Deus Ex Human Revolution (patches).
- Service: usability is simplified. The sheer fact it's easy to pull games from a service like steam and get updates automatically is already a plus, but by adding features like Steam Workshop, or meaningful achievements (for let's say, finding hidden easter eggs) you are offering features a pirated copy can't use. Examples: Skyrim (workshop), Surgeon Simulator (achievements). Known platforms that use this mechanic as well are services like Google Music, Spotify, Netflix and Hulu.


And is it terrible to pirate indie games? I say it can benefit greatly;
Game Dev Tycoon was a simple game, offered through the developers website alone. No chance this game would see the broad public with a business model like this. Up until the pirates stepped in. The creative way Game Dev Tycoon handled pirates by actually making the ingame company go down under saw a lot of media attention. The widespread virality of the news gave the game more coverage than an AAA title with a bigger marketing budget than the development costs and this made the game known to people. Nowadays the game is greenlit on steam and available for purchase (and pulling the "meaningful achievements" card, see above). This would not have happened without the coverage it got thanks to piracy.


What would the difference be between not playing a game, and pirating it? - The coverage it gets. If people are massively leaving a game alone for what it is. Not paying nor pirating it, the conclusion would be that there is no demand for this game. When a game gets massively pirated, and numbers are available, and not bought, it shows there is a demand for that game, but there is something inherently flawed. What that might be is case specific.



_________________________________________
On a side note, I'd like to raise the fact that a discussion is backed up by arguments. A post like Wijkerts is not contributing to anything. Do not comment at all if that is your only contribution. Bland statements that there is no discussion to have are not welcome either, as there is clearly a discussion to have if there is a reason to raise the topic, this thread, and this phenomenon would simply not exist. I'm happy LuckyNoS7evin did give arguments as well. "There is no argument that someone can use to justify" is a statement in the same light of day as we are having a discussion here, which is by definion made up by arguments for and against. However, I do appreciate your further comment and thought on the subject and see it as valuable input.
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