Widescreen Gaming Forum

Just because Windows blames a crash on a set of drivers, does not mean its the drivers fault. My old setup BSODed more than 5 times a day, blaming Nvidia drivers almost half the time.

After a hardware overhaul of CPU, motherboard, and RAM; but using those same drivers everything was smooth sailing.

My point = erronous error reporting = erronous report about errors.

Though I'm not saying that the reported percentage is way off, I'm just saying that we should keep in mind that there is a range of accuracy in play here.

This is very true! Many reports of driver errors are caused by things not even related to the GFX card. My point wasn't to show that Nvidia is some kind of Sir Crashalot, but that I can at least build up my statements with facts and statistics underbuilding my statements. I recent a bit the "drivers suck" statements and therefore went a bit hard out on this one. It wasn't targeted against Nvidia. :)

Actually, a vast majority of OS crashes being caused by video drivers does not surprise me at all. I attribute it to user habits though. What other piece of hardware has a user experience that compels so many people to arbitrarily mess with drivers every few weeks? This is a bad habit perpetuated by "enthusiasts" who like to toy with every aspect of their video cards settings. They constantly experiment with different settings and installations of drivers on an almost chronic basis...then wonder why the video card is blamed for the majority of BSODs. I prefer to live by 2 rules with computers -- the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid) and the "if it's not broke don't fix it" principle. While that might seem to be common sense in hindsight, many people do not practice those 2 concepts on a regular basis when it comes to computers. This is not a personal jab at enthusiasts, it's more of a detached observation I've made over time. People like to attribute the problem not to their tinkering, but to the hardware or driver itself.

On the original topic. It looks like 212 chips are going to find themselves coming after the 295 and 285. It's supposedly a die shrink and 60% bump up in shaders from the 260/280, but still based in 200 series architecture feature set. I'm going to pass on the 285 and 295 but I'm still trying to decide on my next purchase between 212 or 300 based because of features and performance. DX11 won't arrive before 300 chip on the nVidia side but the 212 looks like a nice upgrade from the 260/280. The prices are crashing on the 260/280's a bit atm $300/200. I just picked up a 260 for $157 open box on Newegg yesterday that'll hold me over till 212/300.

_________________
Brad Hawthorne
Product Manager
Nthusim Pty. Ltd. | www.nthusim.com

Thats the big problem. Camps. ATI and Nvidia are companies with shareholders just caring about profits. I never understood this camping.

You don't see it their way because you're on our side of it, the consumer side. For them it's a business and a very competitive one. For us it's a hobby, past time, what have you. Our livelihoods don't depend on the GPU decisions we make, theirs do. If you were working for either of them you'd probably see it their way.

I also don't choose to call people's person product opinions idiotic. Everyone has a right to their opinion product wise and most are based on their personal past experiences. Who are any of us to tell someone what they should buy or the manufacturers they buy from how to advertise, because after all, BOTH decisions are based on consumer/manufacturer relationships and what is appealing to consumers.

You COULD look at it on the bright side and see that camp competition, loyalty, what have you, ALSO creates competitive pricing and innovation. It's not all as bad as you make it sound. A lot of those saying they've had problems with ATI drivers aren't just tooting their horn. Many of them, including myself, are using Omega drivers because they actually work better.

Even in ATI's 9000 series heyday they had serious oversights with software, and even MB/GPU compatibility. An upgrade I tried on my first gaming rig, which originally had a Ti 4200 and an A7V333, was swapping the Ti 4200 out for a 9600GT. I found a great deal on it at CompUSA. Turns out it wouldn't work at all, every game would CTD after a minute or so of playing. The problem was that card wasn't compatible at ALL with that MB, and that MB was one of the most popular at the time.

I also feel your example of Vista crashes is a bit absurd. For one thing that was well before all the VIsta hotfixes, which were sorely needed and straightened out most of the Vista problems. And what really is the point of the market share stats? Seems all it really shows is that Nvidia products are purchased a lot because they work well and are supported well.

IMHO you also haven't proven anything regarding Nvidia having inferior drivers. I think it's quite absurd to even imply it. I don't see Nvidia owners having to laboriously remove ALL traces of previous drivers to avoid serious problems. I also don't see Nvidia hiring Ray Adams to write an uninstall utility that doesn't even work properly. ATI ought to package Driver Cleaner with their drivers. LOL

I also don't see Nvidia making bogus errors like the Cat 5.7 driver build that rendered all MoH titles, still a pretty popular game at the time, to not work, then be oblivious to it for months, and furthermore imply it was people not knowing how to install their drivers, game, what have you when I brought it to their attention. Then a few months later they say in their release notes there's a problem with MoH not working and they are trying to fix the problem.

By then it had been several months and I had already told ATI about a temp workaround I found on Rage3D whereby you extract the OpenAl driver from Cat 5.6 and put it in the game directory, allowing everything else to work off Cat 5.7. These guys are plain ignorant to what consumers want most of the time, and we're not idiots for saying it. They also don't seem to be too adept or concerned about fixing serious problems. Otherwise why would Omega drivers exist mainly to serve ATI customers?

Back to DX11 vs 10.1 though. So what if Nvidia chose to focus on DX11? In it having backwards compatibility, both hardware types will be served, and soon enough from what is being said about W7. You're not always going to get things your way, esp if you back companies like ATI and AMD. Nvidia is playing catch up with GPU die size right now, so I'm sure spending money on that is more important to them than worrying about current DX10.1 support.

For that matter, you're not psychic, how do you know it wasn't that they didn't think there were enough developers interested in writing for it yet to worry about making their GPUs compatible with it at this point? After all they DO have close ties with a lot of developers, if anyone would know this they would.

I never said DX10.1 is a gamble. What I meant was it's a gamble buying a card now or esp when DX10.1 first released, and expect immediate support for it or that it will not be overshadowed soon by DX11. Heck, for that matter, it's getting to be that almost ANY PC tech is a gamble, there are no sure things anymore. Your comments are laced with words like "there's every indication that", etc,. Well those indications don't always play out the way people think they will, esp when the economy is strapped.

Like I said, we'll have DX10.1 AND DX11 support soon enough with W7, and probably better than Vista could ever support it. There are many factors involved here. Perhaps you should put aside your personal feelings momentarily and imagine what it's like to make decisions for a company like Nvidia. They aren't the type to do things on a whim.

Ghimpi, my "KISS" regarding the "If it ain't broken don't fix it" strategy for my last two ATI cards has been to use Omega drivers, as mentioned above. Even though they've not had an update since the Cat 7.11 equivalent Dec '07 release, they STILL work better than that ATI crap, and I don't need to list any bogus stats to prove it. One trip to Driver Heaven to witness the huge ongoing fan base Omegaman has is proof enough.

Ghimpi, my "KISS" regarding the "If it ain't broken don't fix it" strategy for my last two ATI cards has been to use Omega drivers, as mentioned above. Even though they've not had an update since the Cat 7.11 equivalent Dec '07 release, they STILL work better than that ATI crap, and I don't need to list any bogus stats to prove it. One trip to Driver Heaven to witness the huge ongoing fan base Omegaman has is proof enough.

Sounds like it's been a good formula that works for you. I'm all for whatever works best for a person.

Personal opinion and insight in general:
While I might have a sig that advertises a bit of my bias, I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of nVidia not always being the king of the hill all the time. The cycle of innovation and competition between ATI/AMD and nVidia has always been a good source of entertainment for me. I don't buy into the idea of knocking one brand or the other for irrational reasons like some video card owners do. Mac vs PC, Ford vs Chevy, AMD vs Intel, etc vs etc...it's all silly forum banter when it comes down to the core of the matter. We all should just use what we use and be comfortable with whatever ends up being your personal preference. I liken all the video card controversy to the level of religious belief with some people. In many ways their emotions and the unsubstantiated beliefs are forced onto others in a public way...spreading the gospel of whatever they're trying to sell. It's all really silly looking at the core of it. Some people have a lot of emotional time and money invested in video cards apparently. :wink:

_________________
Brad Hawthorne
Product Manager
Nthusim Pty. Ltd. | www.nthusim.com

Hehe... Ghimpi, that's the most amusingly accurate comparison I've ever seen! Fanboys are the atheistic tech worlds equivalent of religious fanatics - they can't be argued with, they always think they're right and that anyone who disagrees with them is a troll or in league with the devil or some equal nonsense. While the rest of us just want to get on with using whatever we're using at the time.

edit: I had written a long post, but I really can't be arsed to bother debating stuff for the fourth time, so I've pulled it.

Frag... that last lot started out well reasoned, but sounded very much like a fanboy in various parts. I agree with one thing, though; any modern PC tech is a gamble.

You COULD look at it on the bright side and see that camp competition, loyalty, what have you, ALSO creates competitive pricing and innovation. It's not all as bad as you make it sound.

Up in these here parts, we call that Fanboyism folks.

Its fair to say that both company's currently are having driver problems as witnessed in forums such as [H] you will find a roughly 1:1 ratio of threads complaining about drivers.

Hehe... Ghimpi, that's the most amusingly accurate comparison I've ever seen! Fanboys are the atheistic tech worlds equivalent of religious fanatics - they can't be argued with, they always think they're right and that anyone who disagrees with them is a troll or in league with the devil or some equal nonsense. While the rest of us just want to get on with using whatever we're using at the time.

Why is it that anyone sounding biased toward Nvidia here is suddenly a "fanboy" and anyone biased toward ATI, not that those always arguing ATI's side admit it, are somehow not? Furthermore they choose to call us idiots just for being in the mainstream, according to the sales figures posted. I think it's time some of you admit that this forum in having a high percentage of staff always backing ATI NEEDS some Nvidia camp customers balancing the chat.

A fanboy is in reality someone that unconditionally backs a brand, without having given the competition a fair chance. In owning an ATI card currently and having had one before it and using both for a combined 4 yrs of my total 7 yrs of gaming/PC use, I think I qualify as someone that is in fact NOT a fanboy. So I don't appreciate the childish labels born of that "what could be" ATI sentiment. Time for some of you to own up to what is and just deal with it, without trash talking those whom disagree with you.

Otherwise you may as well have ATI as your main forum ad sponsor and admit you're trying to bias the public's opinion on GPUs. Furthermore I haven't seen anyone here, including myself, call anyone backing ATI a troll, devilish, or nonsensical. If fact what I DID say is that camps in both manufacturing AND consumerism is healthy to the industry and pricing, and innovation. Time for some of you to get over your Nvidia bashing long enough to see that we have an opinion too.

Glad you DID edit that post, because even most of what you didn't is flame bait. Your well reasoned then sounded fanboy comment doesn't hold much water when you had just finished trash talking yourself. At least mine was without the harshness.

@Da Fox
The "camp" mentality, as mentioned, is only fanboy in nature when you start backing one over the other unconditionally, as if a pre-conceived purchase decision. Some here need to look at this a bit more maturely and see that camp mentality can be a lot like capture the flag. The flag being the customers respect, loyalty, attention, what have you. It doesn't mean a given customer will always side with that camp, and those of you insisting on trying to degrade consumers for backing one over the other for whatever reason are not exactly going to get your "what could be" dreams answered by it. If anything you are serving to polarize Nvidia and ATI customers further and in doing so putting a knife to your throats in trying to get your demands met. So maybe next time you blame Nvidia and their so called idiotic customers you should think about that.

Quite frankly I expected more maturity from a tech oriented forum like WSGF. Seems the average memeber has more of it than most of the staff lately. :roll:

Strangely enough I tend to see an nVidia bias at WSGF but then again I only read the surround gaming sub-forums here. Is the preceived ATI bias just in the widescreen gaming sections? Ultimately, people will relate to others based on thier personal knowledgebase. If that happens to be ATI as long as they're being rational about it I see no issue. I think we're all getting lost in the details here. Be it DX10.1 optimizations or DX11, really if the game runs with any type of hardware locked at 60 vsync and maintains that quality of play I don't see the difference between ATI and nVidia for the entheusiast segment. There are hardware limitation reasons for a nVidia bias on surround gaming, but I don't see that playing any role in a widescreen gaming bias. I'm all about using what makes the most sense for you as an individual.

_________________
Brad Hawthorne
Product Manager
Nthusim Pty. Ltd. | www.nthusim.com

@Frag Maniac:
Its been a bit long posts afterwards, so I'm reducing the quoting. :)

I can't still see any benifits of camps. Camps hurt the community and the sales dynamics will still be there with smaller prices as long as there is competition.

Loyalty to a piece of hardware from a company that produces it only to make money is not something I can relate to either. If it were some kind of idealism behind the idea of the compnay, I could relate to it more (like those producing alternative cars to reduce the tear of enviroment).

Here at WSGF we pride ourself to be hardware neutral. Not in the sense that we don't have personal preferences, but in the sense that whatever hardware that fits the forum members preferences is the best hardware for that member. We like to inform without making the choice for a person, since its not us who are going to use the hardware afterwards, so our personal preferences means less in that picture.

I can tell a member what he can expect with a hardware of his/her choice and even recommend some based upon the use of the member. As you might have noticed about my screen, though I love the quality and I'm very happy that I bought it, I don't recommend it everywhere. It fits MY preferences, not nessesarily everyones'.

If I am a satisfied customer buying a piece of hardware from a company, I most likely buy there again. But not out of loyalty. The moment the service goes down, I take my money elsewhere. Having loyalty to someone thats in it for the profit, isn't my thing.

Neither of us here at WSGF, moderators and administrators alike, gets a single dime for our work here. We do it for the community. Ibrin has put the money for this community out of his own pocket for years. We're not in it for the money and therefore you see few ads here (most of those there is only to pay a bit for server and such).

Lets go over to the discussion at hand:

Drivers:

You claim that ATI drivers are worse then Nvidia drivers and have done so also in the past. Not a single time have you shown up some sort of evidence backing your claims.

I've had more issues with Nvidia cards then ATI (I have 17 years of experience with PC, 20 if to count before I got my own PC that wasn't commondore and 28 years of gaming experience... I am currently 35years), and still I don't make claims that Nvidia drivers are worse. I could sit a whole day posting links about Nvidia drivers and BSODS:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=no&q=180.43+bsod&lr=
It still won't help, since those complaining doesn't represent fully the whole user base. Usually people complain when they are unsatisfied and say nothing when they are happy.

I can also sit around a day and show many of the same posts about Nvidia and BSODS being caused by user errors, not the drivers.

If you are going to make such claim, please back it up with evidence. Otherwise I consider it FUD that would only mislead users, which is something I cannot accept at WSGF. This goes for both Nvidia and ATI FUD to make myself clear. Next time you bring this up, I expect to see evidence PROVING it as a general fact.

I'm not discussing this with you to defend ATI, but to make you and people aware that making such statement as a general fact should be backed up extremely good. Othewise it would hurt users and I don't want that.

DirectX 10.1:

DX10.1 is a part of the OP. The main part actually.

You make claims that DX10.1 is not supported in games and I showed you otherwise. Not only that, I showed you that it will be furthermore supported in the future. The coming of DX11 is a bonus for DX10.1 user, since developers targets area's with large userbase. For a while after DX11 cards are there, the DX11 card users will be considered a part of the DX10.1 userbase until it grows large enough to be considered its own userbase.

I have proven that games are there and games are coming that takes advantage of DX10.1 features. I've also proven that DX10.1 features are benificial to gamers (Including Nvidia users when they get a special rendering call as in Farcry 2).

Claiming that there is no benifit or DX10.1 goes against every benchmark made on that subject.

Arguing about DX10.1 support and still wishing DX11 welcome even thought at the current moment there isn't even a single title advertised in DX11 is controdicting.

That I like DX10.1 and can see the benifits have nothing to do with ATI cards supporting it. Its about the tech and if the tech was on Nvidia cards, I would still support it. The reason I support it, is that it benifits us gamers. If Nvidia would have supported it before, it would benift more gamers, which would be even better. More games would have adopted it then and we would see, among other things, faster AA for free. That Nvidia went against implementing DX10.1 hurted the gaming community much more. If you think it was done from Nvidia "for gamers sake" you are wrong. Check out the benchmarks with and without DX10.1 when AA is used. It was done for financial reasons and they didn't give a **** about gamers. I don't blame them in a way, because they are producing GFX cards only to make money anyway.

That you have some loyalty feeling towards Nvidia is not something I will put down, though I cannot understand it. Just make sure to seperate what is your personal opinion and whats a general fact. If you feel something is wrong with a piece of hardware, you are welcome to point it out. Thats a good thing, as long as its ment to be constructive and not for "loyalty to a company". Make sure its well documented as well. You have been good at that when it comes to monitors, but its been a bit lacking when you make statements about GFX cards.

Discussing this with me isn't a kind of "I am in ATI camp, you are in Nvidia camp". Thats because I'm in neither camp. I'm not in it for promotion or putting down any of them and I don't care about neither companies. Thats what they are to me, companies. I have no personal feelings towards them and GFX cards is a piece of plastic and metal. I care about what the cards can do for us gamers. :)

@Ghimpi:
We might seem biast when it comes to Nvidia and surround forums, but that has a natural cause in resolution support. Nvidia cards have support for higher resolution then ATI in triplehead configs, which is nessesary. Also, they have custom driver profiles for SLI which can ease things when more juice is required. This is why we often recommend Nvidia cards for TH/surround users. Should the tables turn, then recommandations will turn as well. We care about users and the community and don't give a rats ass about Nvidia vs. ATI. Whatever works best for our users! :D

:triplewide

We're sponsored by nVidia.

We're not sponsored by ATi.

I don't care for nVidias recent drivers because I liked their old control panel.

Neither do I care for ATis, because I don't like Catalyst Control Centre - I think it's little better than bloatware.

I use both ATi and nVidia.

And AMD and Intel.

Not including boxes running as firewalls, servers, crunchers or laptops, I've got one with an AMD CPU and nVidia GPU, one with an Intel CPU and nVidia GPU, one with an AMD CPU and ATi GPU and one with an Intel CPU and ATi GPU.

My experience of both nVidia and ATi have been roughly equal, in both the good and the bad stakes.

I buy (and therefore use) whatever gives me the best features and best performance for the budget I set myself at the time I am looking to purchase new hardware. In March, that was an 8800GT. In October it was a 4850.

Please explain to me why or how that is displaying bias?









Overall, I'd say there was an nVidia bias in the whole forum. Due in no small part to the fact that it took ATi a bloody long time to sort their act out and provide software-controlled Fixed Aspect Ratio Scaling. So when anyone asked about purchasing a monitor, I, and others, would generally recommend nVidia so they didn't have to worry about the monitor needing to support Fixed Aspect Ratio Scaling. Now the playing field is level again on those terms, recommendations are based more of the capabilities of the hardware than the software featureset.