Widescreen Gaming Forum

Hmm I did not know about the triple channel deal. So I got to learn something today :P

I think this is the first time in history that a CPU upgrade is more of a option than a requirement.

In the past from one generation to the next people were maxing out there cpu's to the very limit, eagerly waiting for the next cycle because they were cpu limited.

When the quadcore came out and there overclock ability, now for once there is headroom. People setting on 3.6ghz Q6600's for under $200 can sit pretty and totally skip the i7 without any major penalty at all and wait for the next big thing that may have even better advances.

Im hoping for some kind of reverse hyper threading so that programs that only use 1 or 2 cores can use all 4 (or 8 as it will be for the next cycle probably)

Now my fear is with this difference in our hardware power, the software makers will be lazy or purposely have bad code in the next set of games that max out even the i7 to again force an upgrade if you want to play the latest and greatest at its high settings. I feel this is kind of what they did for GPU's with games like Crysis.

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Hmm I did not know about the triple channel deal. So I got to learn something today :P

Awesome. :D

I think this is the first time in history that a CPU upgrade is more of a option than a requirement.

In the past from one generation to the next people were maxing out there cpu's to the very limit, eagerly waiting for the next cycle because they were cpu limited.

Nah, some stuff is still seriously CPU limited - particularly with the really high-end graphics cards... they gulp CPU power every chance they get. Particularly the 4870X2... that'll give more frames the more GHz you give it on the CPU. And i7 is no slouch - a slower clocked i7 will quite handily beat the Core 2 Quads in pretty much everything but games, where they don't really give much back in terms of extras. For encoding or conversion or any bandwidth or CPU related tasks, though... even the stock i7 920 will give the QX9775 a beating.

When the quadcore came out and there overclock ability, now for once there is headroom. People setting on 3.6ghz Q6600's for under $200 can sit pretty and totally skip the i7 without any major penalty at all and wait for the next big thing that may have even better advances.

If i5 had come out first, I'd agree. I have a feeling that i7 is going to be around for a while yet. ;) Unless Intel EOL's socket 775 pronto, there are going to be a fair number of people out there that look at that as the mid- and low-end alternative to i7. :)

Im hoping for some kind of reverse hyper threading so that programs that only use 1 or 2 cores can use all 4 (or 8 as it will be for the next cycle probably)

Intel sort of have something like that in the Core i7 - Turbo Mode. If a program can take advantage of dual cores it'll overclock two cores by a single multiplier, if it's single threaded, it'll overclock the core that the program is running on by two multipliers. It'll do it as long as the CPU remains within it's TDP design threshold.

Now my fear is with this difference in our hardware power, the software makers will be lazy or purposely have bad code in the next set of games that max out even the i7 to again force an upgrade if you want to play the latest and greatest at its high settings. I feel this is kind of what they did for GPU's with games like Crysis.

Bah, sloppy code has been around for a while now, and as things get more complex and deadlines and competition in the market gets even tighter, it's only gonna get worse, it ain't gonna get better. :(

When you used the 4870X2 as an example of cpu limits. What do you mean exactly?

I mean I am cpu limited in an older game because my dual 4850's can eat it up at like 200fps and thats so many frames the cpu cant keep up and thus I am cpu limited. But I am at 200fps so whats it matter? (I always use Vsync anyways)

If I try a real game that is new with maxed out settings and get say 50-70fps the gpu is working hard and the cpu can easily keep up.

I do not think the relation between cpu & gpu & bottleneck is understood by many.

If your at 60fps already or higher and the cpu is maxed out, even though it in theory is your bottleneck for more, in context its not holding you back so its not a limitation. So its not a bottleneck on performance in real life terms just on paper.

The easier the card can render the game, the more frames it puts out, the more frames it puts out the more the cpu has to work to process it all.

Harder game = more gpu strain and that in turn = less cpu stain.

So that on paper means

Stronger GPU = Easier to get CPU bottleneck.

However in real life terms, that cpu bottlenck may not be a limitation at all as long as your combo of cpu + gpu can get 60fps or so.

Thats the basis of it, it of course goes deeper on a per game level where other things use the cpu like AI scripts.

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To respond to Frag's post earlier about the M-Audio not having DTS support: I am able to use DTS flawlessly with my Z-5500s. I feel like a fool here but whatever it is allows DTS to work perfectly with any movie I play that is DTS enabled (And trust me I do it, love the sound of DTS). In any case, the sound card does support it. Maybe it's just me but I like the simple software. I want my sound to be accurate, not all that stupid crap Creative bundles like reverb and room effects (The M-Audio has this if you are using a non-digital connection but not if you are).

Cool, now that I see your setup I can add more advise.

Soundcard: Why?

Vista breaks almost all hardware functions of a soundcard, and if your doing digital output the reciver is doing the work not the soundcard. On-Board is very good these days.

I do have a soundcard in my rig, but I purchased it smartly I got a refurbished X-Fi Xtreme Music for like $40 and I use analog output so the soundcard can effect the quality and I really like the 3DCMSS that the X-Fi has, also with Alchemy some games have EAX again.

If you do not have a specific reason for a sound card this is a area you can probably save money.

Why? Because you have ears and an appreciation for quality audio. If you don't, plug in some RCA or GPX brand speakers and enjoy (The thought is pure torture to my ears!).

Vista doesn't break anything, if sound card makers (Namely Creative :evil:) are too damn lazy to code decent drivers the stuff will not work. On-board is good, LOL. At providing bare minimum sound - yes. The bare minimum now is much better than it previously was (Think of listening to your computer's sound through two cups with a string attached in the old days of on-board sound ). To anyone with even a slightly discerning ear, it's pure rubbish. Just because mobos come with optical and coaxial S/PDIF plugs and 7.1 surround doesn't mean it's quality it means it's available (Big difference).

Not to disrespect you, but buying anything Creative can't be said to be smart unless you're going to smash it into bits in front of the Creative headquarters (preferably in front of the CEO - but you might get in trouble for that). They use cheap DACs and produce only average sound quality. Given anyone buying a sound card has more demand for quality than someone using on-board, you should get something worth it and Creative is simply not worth it.

I'm an audiophile so I take offense to the suggestion people should just not spend as much money. PC audio is the cheapest to make sound fairly high quality compared to many hundreds and even thousands of dollars necessary when looking at stand-alone audio components. If you need basic sound, use on-board. If you want better sound, get M-Audio or HT Omega but don't buy Creative. Creative is similar in quality to on-board and is wasted money. I'm not alone in this, since you see several other members here (and many elsewhere I can vouch for) will agree on Creative being a poor choice for sound cards.

For example, here is a $135 Creative sound card (via Newegg if you can't tell from the watermark)


Now here is a $90 card from HT Omega


Only Creative would charge so much for a card with no optical or coaxial S/PDIF inputs...They're about money more than quality whereas the opposite is true for M-Audio (Can't say for HT Omega but the seem quality oriented).

IMO the best PSU is and always will be PC Power & Cooling though :P

I have had great experience with the ABS brand myself. Funny story how I picked them though, I was looking at cheaper PSUs and people kept telling me "You need more amps on the 12 volt rails!" so I was sick of hearing it I went to Newegg and clicked the drop down on 12 volt rails and saw one that said six (The most it had listed, I knew about duals but nothing more). I clicked it and found my current ABS Tagan PSU on there regularly $190 for $100. A total of 64 amps on those rails which means this beast will power just about anything I put in here. Given I was looking at paying $80-100 for a PSU that was going to be 500-600 watts with decent power on dual or triple 12 volt rails, I went for overkill given the good sale.

Plus I like the shiny blue box the PSU components are encased in! :mrgreen:

While not ultra high end I am an audio enthusiast. Thats why I broke my old X-Fi modding the Op-Amps :P

I run Klipsch Quintet III speakers from my amp from the computer, and use Audio Technica A700's for my headphones. I was going to get the X-Fi prelude but it was too expensive.

I cant say that my X-Fi has dissapointed me any, nor that I have found a more expensive card to sound better to me yet.

Again digital is decoded by the receiver, to my knowledge if thats your plan the soudncard has little to nothing to do with the quality its going to be all about the device decoding and amplifying it.

There is a thick line between the quality of your normal computer setup and what i have, but the line is very thin between where I stand and something higher up. Infact so thin that my ears are not good enough to perceive it and often I wonder as with many enthusiast if its more of a placebo effect than anything else.

For your PSU Tagan is a well known brand with a good history. Infact they make alot of the higher brand PSU's they are just rebranded. Just like OCZ now makes the lower end PC P&C stuff.

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While not ultra high end I am an audio enthusiast. Thats why I broke my old X-Fi modding the Op-Amps :P

I run Klipsch Quintet III speakers from my amp from the computer, and use Audio Technica A700's for my headphones. I was going to get the X-Fi prelude but it was too expensive.

I cant say that my X-Fi has dissapointed me any, nor that I have found a more expensive card to sound better to me yet.

Again digital is decoded by the receiver, to my knowledge if thats your plan the soudncard has little to nothing to do with the quality its going to be all about the device decoding and amplifying it.

There is a thick line between the quality of your normal computer setup and what i have, but the line is very thin between where I stand and something higher up. Infact so thin that my ears are not good enough to perceive it and often I wonder as with many enthusiast if its more of a placebo effect than anything else.

For your PSU Tagan is a well known brand with a good history. Infact they make alot of the higher brand PSU's they are just rebranded. Just like OCZ now makes the lower end PC P&C stuff.

Well, my Z-5500s are very nice for PC speakers and I'd say they do a fine job decoding everything. The sound card still plays an important role. Sort of like the motor and transmission in a car. One provides the power (Sound card) and the other delivers it (speakers) to the wheels (ears). I like to use comparisons with car stuff, so sue me :P.

Also to the OP, I would definately say the Z-5500 is worth the extra difference. Do not let others tell you other wise, if you want the best PC sound you can get within reason then go for the Z-5500s.

There is nothing wrong with the Z5500 but its nothing compared to a full blow home theather setup like I use. Also you can expect critisism with an all in one set like that on a audio forum. They will tell you that the cost of a good decoder/amp is high, so a set like that will sacrifice the quality of the speakers, or the decoder/amp to make it fit in that price range.

I do prefer the analog sets for that reason, you can always get a better amp but with the digital your kinda stuck. like for computer speakers the best ones I know of that a normal guy may have are the Klipsh Pro Media Ultra's.

So I find a small amount of irony that you tried to come across as an audiophile and insult my sound card choice :P

Also no harm in comparing computers to cars, I tend to do that alot when I explain things too. Analogy Master here :P

My actual setup right now...

I have nice infinitys here from my last setup and for bass I had an individual amp on the line level out of my main receiver hooked to a custom box I built with car subs in it. Then I got the klipsh set a couple of years ago, I use the klipsh since I have the entire 7.1 set including the massive sub. The infinitiys are probably a bit nicer but I only have two front and two rear for them and while my custom car sub setup can make the roof pop off the house, its a bad thing too because if anybody is home I cant use it without complaints. Even the Klipsh sub I had to move next to me and turn its gain almost all the way down.

I used to be an audio addict, did car installs and designed custom boxes for optimal air space and port size/tuning based on the theif/small parameters that you can get on the speakers white papers. There is a whole level of that stuff that even many professionals do not know. However I got out of that scene as I got older as it was more of a "kid" thing to do. I notice I hardly ever turn my music up that loud anymore.

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First the GTX 295, why two? It just came out so its incredibly expensive also it would be considered "quad sli" wich has little support and probably poor drivers.

I agree with this, and it's why I am still skeptical about the GTX 295 in general. It seems OK as a card in and of itself, but I want to leave one Pci-Ex slot for an SLI upgrade, and Nvidia has not exactly had stellar support for Quad SLI.

Lately I'm thinking getting a good price on one GTX 260 Core 216 or just a plain GTX 260 and OCing it would be better. Then I could swap it out for a GTX 300 DX11 card when they're available without a huge loss.

I also agree that ASUS has poor support, but it's never been all that good. The only difference is now you can get a hold of them easier than in the past, but you're often greeted with insults and/or lack of proper attention, unless you get lucky and find the odd guy there that actually gives a damn and knows something.

The main difference with ASUS in recent years has not been so much their support but there inconsistency in product. It's common for them to have lots of problems in the first few months after a MB is released. I am definitely considering Gigabyte this time around. I've had ASUS and MSI MBs, and MSI, Gigabyte and Sapphire GPUs. Of those Gigabyte has the best support by far.

To respond to Frag's post earlier about the M-Audio not having DTS support: I am able to use DTS flawlessly with my Z-5500s.

That's because the Z5500s have hardware decoding built in.

Personally I don't like their sub and satellite design though, so I went with the Creative Gigaworks 5.1 set, which is the original 560 watt one, not the one they replaced it with. The 8" sub plays much tighter and is still very deep in frequency. It also has a whopping 260 watts sent to it.

I also like the two way satellites, which having a tweeter sound very clear and detailed. Lastly the desktop controller box is the digital button type, vs the analog volume dial the Z5500s have, which have been known to wear out and cause sound problems.

You can't get the S700 set I have anymore as they haven't made it in a while. You can however still get the 7.1 version of it called the S750, which is still one of the best PC speaker sets in the under $500 price range IMO. I am still very glad I jumped on my 5.1 set for $317 at Newegg 4 yrs ago.

There is nothing wrong with the Z5500 but its nothing compared to a full blow home theather setup like I use. Also you can expect critisism with an all in one set like that on a audio forum. They will tell you that the cost of a good decoder/amp is high, so a set like that will sacrifice the quality of the speakers, or the decoder/amp to make it fit in that price range.

I do prefer the analog sets for that reason, you can always get a better amp but with the digital your kinda stuck. like for computer speakers the best ones I know of that a normal guy may have are the Klipsh Pro Media Ultra's.

So I find a small amount of irony that you tried to come across as an audiophile and insult my sound card choice :P

Also no harm in comparing computers to cars, I tend to do that alot when I explain things too. Analogy Master here :P

My actual setup right now...

I have nice infinitys here from my last setup and for bass I had an individual amp on the line level out of my main receiver hooked to a custom box I built with car subs in it. Then I got the klipsh set a couple of years ago, I use the klipsh since I have the entire 7.1 set including the massive sub. The infinitiys are probably a bit nicer but I only have two front and two rear for them and while my custom car sub setup can make the roof pop off the house, its a bad thing too because if anybody is home I cant use it without complaints. Even the Klipsh sub I had to move next to me and turn its gain almost all the way down.

I used to be an audio addict, did car installs and designed custom boxes for optimal air space and port size/tuning based on the theif/small parameters that you can get on the speakers white papers. There is a whole level of that stuff that even many professionals do not know. However I got out of that scene as I got older as it was more of a "kid" thing to do. I notice I hardly ever turn my music up that loud anymore.

Excuse me? I'm not an audiophile because I don't dump hundreds on my computer audio? I spend my money on my home audio stereo which consists of a NAD surround Preamp 917, Adcom GFA-5300, Polk R50 towers, Pioneer PL-71 turntable, Technics SL-P770 CD player, and an Energy AS-180 subwoofer (for games/movies - I know better than to add a subwoofer for music listening). A non-audiophile would have some lousy little receiver and probably some cheap speakers - or worse yet, Bose...

I'm not a fan of Klipsch speakers though. Too bright for my taste, and their newer speakers are a farcry of the quality the old ones had. There's something to be said about the fact you can pick them up at Best Buy as well...btw, if you want to talk about thunderous bass I like Definitive Technology. Obviously I like Energy as well and I'm having trouble remembering the subwoofer I've seen which uses an 8" driver with THICK rubber and absolutely thunders!

I'd hardly define audiophiles as childish, it takes a lot of research and a discerning ear to pick out quality sound. Perhaps picking something based on the amount of watts it claims to have or the amount of bass it has is childish (Can you say Cerwin Vega?) or how loud it can get (This is the worst one I ever see). I'm all about imaging and accuracy, not colored sound or anything boomy. It pains me to see how low-demand most people are settling for some cheap $50-80 PC speakers like Logitech X-530s or the like. But to each his own I suppose, if you aren't that concerned with quality sound there's a lot of stuff available for you.

@ Frag, I have never cared for Creative's speakers either. They're not as atrocious as their sound cards but they still leave a lot to be desired to me. Trust me, I've done a blind comparison with an audiophile friend of mine and he thinks the Z-5500s sound great. After I showed him what they were and what they cost he said they sound fantastic given their low price. Better than any Home Theater In a Box he was ever tortured with listening to.

Digital button types are more reliable than analog? Wow, no offense but that just sounds like plain old mud slinging there. I have seen absolutely no proof that analog knobs are unreliable (Hell, audio equipment has used analog knobs for AGES and they always work fine - I had a Luxman L-480 which was made sometime in the mid-70's that was flawless with one of those "unreliable" analog knobs). Of all things, digital buttons are more unreliable than analog (Ask most audiophiles which they prefer and you'll find most prefer analog). Why the hell would the knob make a difference on the sound of the speakers? I have NEVER heard ANYONE say anything about the knob wearing out. Again, this just makes you look like you're badmouthing the Z-5500s for the hell of it. While Logitech doesn't specialize in audio equipment, these speakers are excellent and there's something to be said for the fact they're still made unlike those Creative speakers.

I question Creative's honesty with a figure of 260 watts on the subwoofer with a single 8" driver - that's really unbelievable given the dual 8" drivers in the Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 setup are only 170 watts. Firstly, an 8" sub of the type that Creative uses simply cannot produce low bass. Unless you're doing something like the 8" sub I listed with very thick rubber and a large well made driver (Which would weigh a ton - I'm guessing the sub weighs 15-20 lbs?) you will not produce the same kind of bass a larger driver will. This Logitech 10" produces excellent bass with 188 watts but it cannot produce the low frequencies and response that my Energy AS-180 12" subwoofer with 180 watts can. To implicate Creative provides better internal setup on their subwoofer than an established company such as Energy seems laughable. Sorry, no friggin' way I'm buying that. Maybe it's 260 watts if lightning strikes...

You should integrate the computer into your home audio system, get more return on your investment.

I do like a lot of boom in my games and stuff, as it adds to the realism when a grenade goes off if your room shakes. Also once in a while the mood strikes me turn my hose into a dance hall. Bass is addicting to me so a sub is an important part of my setup even for music.

Subs with thick rubber? Not sure the one your talking about but I have seen Audiobahns like that, but they are pure SPL not SQL.

I buy on a budget, I get something thats along the best quality for the price. Once you go past that mark the price starts to go up rather sharply for the limited return on quality. I remember the days I would eye down B&W speakers thinking I would have a set in my living area. But I wont for the simple fact I have so many other things to invest in that would mean more to me.

The cheapest method to get really high quality sound is of course a good pair of headphones. Still even here people spend thousands though. Id be quite happy with a pair of AD700's.

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